Liz: Whatever you decide to do for the holidays, it should just be about showing appreciation to your loved ones, your family, your friends, it’s about the memory. And about the experience. And that doesn’t have a budget.
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Chris: This is the Penny Forward podcast, a show about blind people building bright futures, one penny at a time.
Liz: I’m Liz Botner.
Chris: And I’m Chris Peterson.
Liz: We are blind people, learning what it takes to be successful in our personal, professional, and financial lives.
Chris: This is going to be the last episode of the Penny Forward podcast for 2021. We’ll be returning with new episodes, every other week, in 2022, because we’ve noticed that some of you are having trouble staying caught up with the podcast, so we want to make sure that you have plenty of time to listen to each episode. For this last episode of 2021, we’re sharing a recording of a Zoom call hosted by my friend Mo Carpenter. She runs a Facebook group for blind parents called “Parenting Out Of Sight Kids,” and they host a biweekly zoom call discussing topics of interest to blind parents. Last month, we had a conversation about staying on budget during the holidays. And it was such an enjoyable conversation that we really wanted to share it with you here. So, while you are enjoying the holidays with your friends and family, or paying attention to those who may not be enjoying the holidays as much because maybe they’re feeling isolated from their friends and family, we hope you will enjoy this discussion about budgeting during the holidays. Before we get started with that, though, I’d like to tell you about Taylor’s Accessible Branding Solutions. Taylor Arndt is a blind business owner who is able to provide you with anything you might need with regard to accessible web hosting and accessible web design. Visit her website at
to find out what she may be able to do for you, and we’d like to thank Taylor for hosting the Penny Forward.com website, and being a sponsor of the Penny Forward podcast. Now, on to the episode.
Chris: The holidays are a time when we want to do all the things, right? We want to go and travel to see our family, or we want them to come and see us, we’re making big dinners, we’re buying people presents, we’re just doing a lot of stuff that we don’t normally do for the rest of the year. And we can sometimes feel compelled to kind of keep up with the Joneses. You know, one of our friends is giving out expensive presents and we feel like we should give them back a present that’s equally expensive. Let’s not do that. Let’s instead think about the Holidays as a way to build strong connections with each other. It is perfectly acceptable, and it can be very wonderful, to simply say “Hey, I’m thinking of you. I want to spend time with you. Let’s get together for coffee and a slice of blueberry pie.” Maybe see if there’s something that you can do to help a friend out rather than give them a gift. It doesn’t cost you anything maybe, but it might really feel good to them, if they’re a young parent, to, say, offer to babysit their kids for a few hours. Or give them a hand with doing a deep clean of their kitchen or something. All of these things are things that we can do that cost us very little, and really mean a lot. I want us to be really thinking about the spirit of the holidays here, which is really not financial. Do remember, though, the 20, 50, 30, budget. In an ideal world, and you can adjust these numbers to fit your situation if you need to, you would put away 20 percent of your take home pay into some kind of savings for emergencies or big opportunities that come along. You’d spend about half of that on meeting your basic needs for you and your family, and you’d have about a third of it left for fun stuff. And I consider the holidays to be fun stuff. So, you know, maybe you’re gonna make some trade-offs and you’re gonna eat out a little bit less, and you’re gonna spend a little bit more time at home, but inviting your friends over for that slice of blueberry pie and the coffee, or whatever. So, those are my thoughts in general when I start to think about budgeting for the holidays, so I want to open it up for, maybe five minutes, and see what you all think.
Amber: Well, I came in a little late, but this is perfect timing, this call, because I started doing my Christmas shopping recon last night. I am going to actually buy my family members a bunch of gift cards from Shop with Scrips, and so I was just scoping out the best way to spend less, while still getting everybody something, and I think what I’m gonna do for my Dad’s side of the family is, they’re all going to Disney at the beginning of December, so I think I’m just gonna get them all a, one, you know, one fifty-dollar card, to go to Disney, and then give it to them early.
Chris: That’s really good. Thank you, Amber.
Terry: Our next hand is Genene Lea.
Genene: So, for me, I tend to stock up around black Friday. There’s some really good deals I like with this twenty, fifty, thirty, but for me, this is a time to stock up for all year. Like this is the best time you can buy electronics. I have a friend that I got them headphones that were like a hundred ten, but I purchased them for thirty dollars. So my friend thinks that I spent a hundred and ten, but I only spent thirty on them. Well, thirty plus tax.
Chris: That’s great. Thank you, Genene.
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Chris: Liz, why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself, and help us to Segway into something that Genene started to cover, which is shopping for gifts?
Liz: All right. I have recently joined the Penny Forward team, as the podcast co-producer, so that’s how I kind of fall into these things. I’m still learning my way as well, but I’m happy to be here. In terms of shopping for gifts, I definitely think that budgeting is a good idea, and trying to stick to that budget. It may be really, really tempting to go off of that budget if you see something that you absolutely have to have for someone. Yes, that may in the short term be a good thing, because you’re getting the gift that you really want to get the person, but if down the line, that could kind of impact you long term, that may not be such a good idea. And memories are often more longer term better things as gifts to give someone than really expensive things. Because those, I think last longer than the material things. Those are a few things I can think of off the top of my head.
Chris: I love those. And, you know, there’s this saying, “It’s the thought that counts,” and I really think that’s true, but I think we misuse it. Someone will say that, like when they get a gift that they’re really not happy with the gift that they’re giving, right? But it’s the thought that counts. Well, I think that it’s the thought that counts when you give somebody something that you made. I remember, you know, when I was a kid, I used to make people mix tapes. And you can’t … I mean you can make tapes, but everybody except me doesn’t have a tape player anymore. But there’s still ways that you can burn a CD with songs that are special to you and the person that you’re giving it to. You know, stuff like that. So let’s talk about some of the things that you’ve done, that were really special for a specific person, but maybe weren’t something that you bought.
Terry: Our raised hand right now is Amanda.
(Noisy kids in the background.)
Amanda: Hi. (Laugh.)
Chris: Hi, Amanda.
Amanda: I’ve got a noisy house, so just excuse me. I’m getting everybody ready for … well, what is now the new bedtime, because we are not used to daylight, we are not used to this new time change. So, … So a couple of years ago, I was on a pretty strict budget, to the point where I had to watch what I spent. ‘Cause I wasn’t married, and I was on disability income. And I took up knitting. That was right around the time I took up loom knitting. And so everybody that year got something hand knitted from me. And … (Laugh.) It’s so funny, because that was like ten years ago. And my brother, the other day, he said, “What are you getting me for Christmas this year?” And I said “None of your business.” I said “I don’t know yet.” But he said “Well, “I need a new hat, and my wife, the other day, said she needed a new scarf.” So, I said, “Okay.” I said “I’ll see what I can do.” The problem is, this year, I am not able to get any of my yarn out because I have, (Chuckle.) Little kids, and I feel like it’s a time thing for me. But I will say, that made me feel really good because they remembered that, and they kept those gifts, because I try to budget every year, and it got harder when I had kids. ’cause then I had to budget for them, and this year, we came up with the idea to make gifts. So my brother, it’s my brother’s turn to make gifts, and he said that he was gonna make all of us, like wood burnt, like items that he would use his wood burning tool for. So I was like “Well that’s neat.” But the other thing that I thought was really cool was, when I was growing up, I had a friend. Every year, her family went on a trip during the holidays. And I’m like, “Oh my gosh. You know, they’re rich. They can go on cruises and all that.” And then I got older, and, you know, I just realized, you know, they were just like everybody else. Middle class, whatever. But, she explained to me, she goes, “Oh yeah, we go on vacation every year for Christmas. That’s the only gift we get from my … My grandmother doesn’t buy gifts anymore. She buys us trips, because she would rather have the memory of us all being together and going on vacation.” And I thought, “You know, that’s really cool.” Because I think, Chris, earlier, you were saying that it’s more about the memories. And I know My mom has siblings that get caught up in the competition of Christmas. And I hate, I hate to see that. So I … I love it when we personally make gifts, and when we personally give gifts.
Chris: Thanks, Amanda. Let’s talk about decorations. cause I know my family really gets into decorating starting with Halloween, and then we go into, like Fall decorations for Thanksgiving, and then from there we go into the Christmas decorations for the Christmas season. I think maybe, for some of us, this is probably the easiest thing to budget for, because there’s so many things that we have that we use year after year after year. I have like Christmas tree ornaments that I made when I was in kindergarten even. But what are some of the things that yall do for staying on budget when it comes to decorating?
Terry: We have Genene Lea.
Genene: So, one thing for decorating your Christmas tree, you could pop popcorn, and put popcorn garlands on your tree. That’s one that’s cheap, or you can cut strips of paper, and staple them or paste them to make garland for decorations, and you could cut snowflakes, so that’s really, really cost effective. But I was going to suggest, for decorating, you can make wreaths. So, I know we all get boxes of Amazon stuff, or you could go to the dollar tree. Either way. So we get boxes and you can cut a circle out of it, and you can glue, like pinecones on it. Those are free, you go walking with your family and find pinecones or acorns and glue them. You can also glue like tinsel. Tinsel doesn’t cost that much, it’s like a dollar. You can make Santa Clauses and snowmen with paper plates. That is family time with your family. I really think crafting is really great for gifts. cause again, you’re putting a lot of thought into it, and then you have something that will last forever.
Chris: Yeah, and I love that you … you tied this into kids. Because I was just thinking about how much fun my kids have doing exactly stuff like that and then giving it away. It’s a way for them to make their own memories of the holiday season. Which for adults is a really stressful time. For kids, we have to remember it’s kind of a magical time, and some of our stress is in making it magical, but, you know, a lot of the magic is in that simple, simple stuff like making snowmen out of paper plates. So thank you, Genene. I love that. Liz, you want to talk a little bit about holiday dinners?
Liz: Sure. There are definitely things to keep in mind. Such as, if you get a turkey, you can freeze it up to a year. You can buy the turkey the day after Thanksgiving, and freeze it for next year, but you don’t want to forget to, after you freeze the turkey, before you cook it, you don’t want to take it out the day that you’re ready to cook it. You want to take it out five or so days ahead of time so that it has time to thaw properly. Because if you don’t do that, you might be waiting awhile. And you need about 1 and a half pounds of meat per person, which actually seems like a lot to me, but … (Chuckle.) That’s an interesting tidbit.
Chris: It is an interesting tidbit. And it seems like a lot to me too, but I’m not the type of person that gorges myself on Thanksgiving. I think it’s so that you have leftovers you can send home. To me, that’s the most fun part of Thanksgiving is handing out the leftovers at the end.
Moe: And part of that might also be that that’s uncooked weight, and so when you cook it, it will lose some of the fat juices, and a turkey usually has bones, so some of that is gonna be your bone weight.
Chris: Oh. Fair point.
Liz: And in terms of budgeting, you can actually save a little bit by buying a turkey breast. If you’re only going to a small gathering or having a small amount of people over, you don’t need that whole turkey. You can just buy a turkey breast and have that be sufficient for your gathering. Also, you can freeze ham.
Moe: I think this only effects me and Chris, but someone else might be in the Midwest area where High V’s are, but High V does run a campaign around this time of year where if you buy a ham, they will give you a turkey for free, up to, of course, a certain weight, but it’s not like a little turkey. It’s a good sized turkey that you can get. For free, and that’s just a kind of a little bit and tip, if you have a high V store, to get two of your big holiday meals. You get your Thanksgiving, and your Christmas ham, and you only pay for one of them.
Terry: Amanda is next.
Amanda: So I had two comments. One was actually about the last topic, it’s just a real quick one. So one was to get your Christmas decorations, and wrapping paper, and anything you needed for Christmas, was to go after Christmas, the grace period between Christmas and New Years. That’s when I usually get like my gift boxes for like the Mary Kay gift towers that I put together, and I don’t wrap gifts, but that’s also when I go and I get like my cute little gift bags that are drawstring with ribbon, and I can share that sometime. And then, Liz, I love your idea about freezing. We actually have done that before, because one time I had my groceries delivered, … (Chuckle.) And I was, I clicked turkey breast, and I didn’t pay attention, or the store didn’t pay attention, and they actually delivered a whole turkey to my house. And this was in like the middle of June. And I told my mom, I said, “I have a whole turkey in my freezer.” And she says, “Oh, wonderful. We don’t have to buy a turkey this year.” And so that was so funny. And I was also gonna say, another thing you can do, this is what we do for Thanksgiving. Is my aunt, she organizes Thanksgiving every year. And she does a great job of making sure that it is not just one person that does all the work. We do pot luck, and she makes sure that every single person brings something. All the way down to the napkins. (Chuckle.) So yeah.
Chris: Yeah, I was hoping someone would bring that up, because, you know, no matter what, if you’re having people over, nobody should have to do it all by themselves. Do it as a team. You know, have everybody bring a little something, and it spreads out the cost, and it also spreads out the stress a little bit. So that’s great. Thanks, Amanda. Who else do we have?
Terry: We have one more hand, Amber.
Amber: I was actually just having this discussion last week with Mammaw. I told her that we should just have everybody bring something at Christmas. So, yeah. I told her I want to, I think we should all bring pieces of Christmas dinner, and I’d actually like to learn to make peanut butter balls this year.
Moe: Oh, yummy.
Amanda: Amber? Honey, come talk to me. I’ll teach you how to make peanut butter balls or peanut butter roll or whatever you want.
Amber: Super cool.
Crystal: So, I actually just had a question, ’cause you guys had a really good tip about buying Christmas trees early, like, now. (Chuckle.) Where do you guys … Do you guys know of any places? I’m in North Carolina. Do you guys like, know of any places where you can get those early on?
Moe: I’ve had great success when you go to the local farms, of raising Christmas trees. You can contact your boy scouts. Sometimes they do early Christmas trees. That’s my advice. And in North Carolina, wow. I think you guys get beautiful trees up there. Chris, what do you think?
Chris: I think you’re right. I don’t live in North Carolina, so I don’t have any specific recommendations, but if you have a local Facebook group. Like we have a Facebook group for the city of Richfield, which is where I live. And people ask questions in there all the time about, “Where do I get a Christmas tree,” or “where do I get this,” or “where do I get that,” and people have great suggestions. So, I would start out there, but then, I would also look on Google for tree farms that are selling all kinds of trees, and, you know, not just Christmas trees, but all kinds of trees, and then call them up and say, “Hey, do you have Christmas trees?” Of course, transportation’s an issue for a lot of us, you’ve got to be able to get there. But see if you can find a place that you can get to, or, you know, maybe that will be able to drop a tree off, if you’re willing to let them pick, ’cause some place may be even equipped to do that. Anyone else have any thoughts?
Moe: I wonder if Instacart delivers Christmas trees? (Laugh.)
Chris: I’ve never tried that. That’s a good question. They will deliver artificial trees. I can definitively say that.
Moe: I did have one thought.’, and I noticed here that a local apple orchard also is a Christmas tree farm. So that would be anywhere that does like pick your own produce or that kind of stuff.
Chris: Yeah. That’s a good idea. And you might be able to get some hot apple sider at the time.
Liz: Apple sider donuts anyone?
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Chris: That’s maybe a good place to Segway from what you might do if you’re at home to something that Genene talked about, I think it was Genene, earlier, that talked about taking trips. Look as early as possible. This may seem like common sense, but you can’t be too early. If you’re planning on going somewhere, if you can book three weeks ahead of time, you’re likely to get a better price. You can try to ensure that you get a good price by setting a target that you’re willing to pay, and starting out early and using something like Google Flights, or Hopper, or Sky Scanner. These are all price trackers that, if you tell them where you want to go, and when you want to go, and about how much you want to pay, they will let you know when prices go below your threshold. And the thing about that is, is that you then need to be ready to book right now. cause those prices might go right back up again. So, one of the things about travel, travel websites are kind of bad, because they kind of keep track of what you’re looking for. And so you’ll notice that when you’re looking on a travel website, you’ll see a good price for something, and then you’ll go back to that same site, and look for that same price, and it will be gone. And that is intentional. So, shopping around can kind of be your undoing when it comes to booking your travel. When you find a price that you are able to pay, and that you’re willing to pay, you want to jump on that as quick as possible. Don’t try and go for the absolute lowest, because prices might go up while you’re looking for it. The other thing about traveling is prices, particularly for air fares, are cheaper in the middle of the week. Because people are not searching for flights as much then. So what you want to do, is you want to look on Tuesday afternoon, or Wednesday morning, and try to book your flights then. You’ll probably get the best prices by doing that. Also be a little bit flexible about the dates and the times that you’re willing to travel, because sometimes you can get better prices if you’re willing to go a day earlier than you planned, or if you’re willing to go a day later than you planned, you know, leave a day earlier or stay a day later. Kind of be willing to wiggle those around a little bit and plug them into those price trackers and see what comes up. So those are my travel tips, and they’re mostly around air fare, but I’m sure other people have some, so raise your hands, and we’ll invite you on to give your tips about travel, and some of us who are parents may be interested in what your tips are for reducing the stress of traveling with your kids, you know, in addition to your budgeting tips. Terry, who do we got?
Terry: The next hand that’s raised is Amanda.
Amanda: I have a question about traveling, and maybe Traveling Sherry or Chris could help me out with this. Going back to what you said, like “when you find the low price, you know, book it now,” kind of a thing, and then travel sites being intentional, when you find the good price and then it changes. So here’s my question. Is it sensible, like if you’re planning, I don’t know, say a trip … It’s no secret, you all. I’m … I’m trying to get my kids to Disney World and my family to Disney World. Would it be to my benefit to go through a travel agency, vs. trying to do everything on my own?
Chris: Maybe. I say “maybe” because a travel agent can be really good for helping you to put all the details together, but it isn’t necessarily going to be the cheapest way to set up your trip. Now, that may not matter to you. You may want the least stress. And you may want to have a hotel that you know is legit, and that you’re gonna have fun at, and you may want all the timings to work out and everything, and a travel agent can be really good at that. For just booking a flight, a travel agent is probably not going to provide a lot of extra value, because travel agents don’t make money off of booking flights anymore. It used to be that they would earn a commission from the airlines for booking flights, but that isn’t a way that a travel agent makes money anymore. So, they’ll do it for you, but they probably won’t put as much time into it as they might put into, say, booking a hotel, or something like booking a cruise where it’s gonna make them a little bit more money. Terry, what do you think?
Terry: Oh, this is my kind of conversation. My thing that I have discovered is joining a travel club. That will just take care of everything, and get you whole sale prices. Because a lot of people don’t realize that Expedia, and Go Travel, and all of those, are all owned by the same company, and that’s why the algorithm works the way Chris does. (Laugh.) cause they tease you, and if you don’t grab it then, they switch it on you. But I’m a member of a travel club, and I love it. Because I don’t have to worry about prices going up and down, and if I actually beat the price that they’ve given me, they will actually pay the difference. You can call Disney and they’ll work with you on developing your Disney package, except for your airlines. So you can call them, and just talk to them, in Disney reservations, and they’ll come up with a package for you. I would never recommend anybody to go to Disney through a travel agent, unless it’s a whole sale travel group. Like what I’m a member of. Because, like Chris was explaining, the travel agent makes money on cruise lines, hotels, town houses, and house rentals. So, yeah.
Amanda: I see. Thank you, Terry.
Terry: You are so welcome. And Chris is so awesome, and we … on Out Of Sight Adventures, we have a Facebook group, and we post Chris, Penny Forward podcast on there, because it’s such good information.
Terry: But if you have any questions, you know, just E-mail me, or Brian, and we’ll be glad to talk to you about how you can spend the year saving up money with a budget, and before you know it, you’ll be like, “Wow. Let’s go to Disney. We’ve got it paid off.” So, yeah. It’s something to look forward to.
Genene: Besides that too, you could see if you have any Disney cast members that you know that could help you with a discount.
(Female caller laughs.)
Moe: I knew you were gonna say that.
Genene: Well, you know, I live a few minutes from Disney. So, a lot of people I know work there. So, you know, just saying.
Chris: We went to Disney a few years ago, and, I have to say, it was a really fun experience, and there’s definitely some ways that you can keep your budget down, and since it sort of tangentially came up, I also want to say that as a parent, going on a cruise with kids can really be great. Disney has a cruise line. But cruises have things for all members of the family, and cruises have like kids’ activities, you can drop your kids off, and they’ll watch your kids so that you can do some parenty stuff, so a cruise is something that I would highly recommend as a very, kind of accessible way to enjoy a vacation, especially for us as blind people. Because, you know, you’re kind of in a pretty easy to navigate area on a cruise ship, and yet you can get off and you can enjoy the ports and stuff, kind of all in one place for you, and there’s a lot of help.
Terry: Yes. Yes.
Amanda: Including a relief area for your guide dog.
Terry: And, you can call ahead of time, tell them you’re visually impaired, and they will do what they can to accommodate you.
Genene: Yeah. Some cruise lines even give you an audio describer for the shows. I’ve not experienced that yet.
Terry: Oh man. That’s awesome.
Chris: I haven’t either. Way back at the beginning of the Penny Forward podcast, if I can shamelessly plug this, we had a blind travel agent named Melvin Reynolds on, and he’s a cruise expert. He is also a guide dog user, and is familiar with all (the accommodations processes for setting up cruises, or if you want to take your guide dog out of the country or something, you know, he knows how to do all that stuff. So, definitely, if … That’s a place where a travel agent really can be of help. Is if you’re trying to figure out stuff like that. Again, it might not be the cheapest way, but sometimes cost isn’t the only factor. Sometimes it’s, you know, we hire people to help us do things the easier way, or the less stressful way, because our time is valuable too. So, if you’re interested in the whole idea of cruising, and especially cruising with a guide dog, go back and listen to that episode with Melvin, ’cause we talked a lot about that. Let’s do the lightning round now. Any last minute thoughts on budgeting for the holidays that people might have come up with, while we were talking, on any one of these subjects?
Liz: This is Liz. The one thing I did want to mention regarding cruising with a guide dog, is that you do need to be careful, and cognizant, of what ports and destinations you’re going to, because there might be quarantine laws. I mean it can be complicated. But there are people out there who know about those things, and websites, and things like that that can help.
Chris: Yeah, it can be a real time sensitive thing. Melvin talked about, you know, sometimes you can do it but you have to have the paperwork in, and the paperwork might have to be submitted literally the day that you leave the first part of the cruise, or within days of you arriving at the port, so it might behoove you to have somebody help you with all that timing to get it right. I wanted to mention one other thing that I read about while I was researching for this call, that I think is great. And that is that it might be a good way to build connection with your family, or your friends, to set up a volunteer day, or a volunteer half day, or something, with them where you all get together, and instead of giving each other gifts, you go out and you volunteer for some cause that you care about, and spend the day together doing that, and feeling good about helping others along the way. I thought that was a great, almost free, way of building some connection over the holidays that also is really generous and really nice, and I wanted to share that. Liz, do you have any last thoughts?
Liz: I absolutely love that. The bottom line of the thought that I have is that whatever you decide to do for the holidays, it should just be about showing appreciation to your loved ones, your family, your friends, it’s about the memory. And about the experience. And that doesn’t have a budget.
Moe: The one thing I wanted to mention is that I know this time is fun, and that it’s great, and festive, and all that stuff, but don’t forget about your friends, and your family, that have birthdays during this time of the year. Because so much gets overshadowed for the holiday, and then their birthday kind of gets forgotten, unless they’re like me, and they wouldn’t care if you combined their present with an event that was going on for the holiday. But there are others that, that really makes a huge difference to them, that you don’t forget them in the hustle and bustle.
Liz: Thank you for mentioning that. But one thing that is in tandem with that is, it’s great that it’s festive and fun and things like that, but it isn’t that for everyone. And so, remember that if some of your friends or family are struggling, and just be there for them. Even if it’s just to sit with them, even if it’s just on a phone or something. Some people might be struggling. And that’s completely okay.
Chris: It totally is, and people that, like don’t have strong connections with friends and family, or, you know, maybe feel excluded or isolated, those are the kind of struggles that Liz is talking about, and I think some of the things that we were talking about, about making people feel special, those can be good for people that enjoy the holiday season. They can be equally good for people that don’t enjoy the holiday season. cause sometimes just feeling special is a nice thing. And, thank you, Mo, for inviting us on to talk about this, and thank you, Terry, for hosting, and if you think that Penny Forward is doing some good stuff, and you would like to support us, know that you can do that at
and we will appreciate it very, very much.
Chris: All of us felt like we could have gone much longer with that conversation, so if you have holiday budgeting tips you would like to share, please do that in the Penny Forward Facebook group. It’s a safe space, where you can discuss your financial concerns, and tips and tricks, with members of the Penny Forward community.
Chris: If you enjoy the Penny Forward podcast, please rate, review, and share it with your friends. We’re supported by your donations. Please help us to continue producing Penny Forward by following the tip jar link in the show notes, or by visiting
Liz: The Penny forward Podcast is produced by Liz Botner and Chris Peterson. Audio editing and postproduction is provided by Byron Lee, and transcription is provided by Anne Verduin. Music was composed and performed by Andre Loui, and web hosting is provided by Taylor’s Accessibility Services.
Chris: Penny Forward is a community of blind people building bright futures, one penny at a time. Visit
to learn more about who we are, and what we do. Until next time, for all of us in the Penny Forward community, I’m Chris Peterson.
Liz: And I’m Liz Botner. Thanks for listening, and have a great week.