Pre-episode Intro Shawn: One of the guests said, and I can quote it by heart, "Thank you for giving me the gift of a music festival, that I was able to navigate on my terms, and my timing, and it's the first time I was ever able to do something like this without the need of a sighted person." So that was our, "You know what, if we made a difference in one person's life, then there's a chance we made a different in some others," and we just kind of take that mentality of, you know, "we don't need it to be easy, we just need it to be possible." Chris: This is the Penny Forward podcast, a show about blind people building bright futures one penny at a time. I'm Chris Peterson, ... MOe: I'm MOe Carpenter, ... Chris: And Liz is unable to be here today, but she is with us in spirit. And we are excited to welcome to the Penny Forward team, and also to the podcast, Shawn Satterfield of Shine Music. Shine Music is a nonprofit organization that produces the Shine Music Festival, a radically accessible live music event in Colorado that is hoping to serve people with all different types of abilities. It's really interesting, and we're really excited to hear about how it has evolved over the last few years. Shawn, thanks for being here. Shawn: Oh, thanks for having me, Chris and MOe. Chris: Tell us about yourself, and your connection to the disability community if you would please. Shawn: Yeah. I actually did not have any association with the disability community, which I think is actually the problem. How this kind of adventure started was, I love live music. It's my happy place, I think it's really the only place that you can go, and nothing else matters, other than that shared experience, that, you know, the collective community that it creates. So even just for a few hours, we get to put everything aside, all of our differences aside and just share in that moment. And I kind of suddenly realized that the ADA sections, while a lot of individuals myself included at one time, thought, "Wow, that's really great, they get awesome seats and that must be great. You know, they don't have to get in line. They automatically get these front rows or wherever, and ..." but then I realized the barrier. And that barrier that prevented me from getting to know any of them, and them from being a part of the collective community around them. So, that's kind of what I set out, thought it could be done differently. And so, now we just finished our third annual Shine Music festival. MOe: Can you tell us a little more about yourself, and kind of where you've come from? I know you talked about Shine Festival, but how about yourself? Shawn: Yeah. I live in the mountains of Colorado, about ten minutes away from my sanctuary, AKA Red Rocks Amphitheatre. And I have a thirty-year-old son, and a husband, and two dogs, two cats, and I've been in the enterprise web development space for most of my career, working with large enterprise companies. And I started Shine Music, which is a 501C3 nonprofit in 2019. As I started digging into the world of accessibility, I really pivoted my focus to digital accessibility from a professional standpoint, and became a certified trusted web tester, and pivoted from the overall web development side of it to making sure that the websites that are being created are inclusive for all and accessible for all. The nonprofit has kind of taken a hold of everything and has become really my central focus in everything since our first event, which ended up being in 2021 due to the pandemic. So, yeah. I just, I love technology, I love live music, and Shine Music kind of puts it all together for me. Chris: What I think is really interesting about this conversation is that Penny Forward was kind of beginning in 2019 and so was Shine Music. And the pandemic had a big part to play in, in both of our growths, I think. But what I'm curious to know is, can you talk about the process of forming Shine Music, and sort of how it's evolved since 2019, and, particularly talk about the challenges you overcame and how you overcame them? Shawn: Yeah. Absolutely. There were definitely challenges. Trying to start a nonprofit that evolved, or revolved, around live music, during a time when all of that was shut down was definitely a hurtle that we hadn't planned on, but it was kind of a unique thing that it gave me personally was, as someone who in 2019, I saw 51 concerts. So, we don't talk about the financial average of that. (Laugh.) It is uh, it is definitely an addiction to go see live music. And suddenly, 2020 hit, and that was gone. And what I realized from missing music in 2020 was that it was actually very mentally unhealthy for me. I didn't have that escape. I didn't have that kind of combination of exercise, energy, new friends, old friends, new memories, it kind of gave me an even greater appreciation for my mission. To make sure that everyone has access to the power of live music. As I said, I wasn't in the music industry. I'm just a fan. I'm someone who goes to a lot of shows. So, the whole concept of, "Why would I do this?" (Chuckle.) There are people out there who could do this without even, you know, really lifting a finger." And I probably spent six months. I don't know about you, Chris, but you know, when you go to start a nonprofit, there's a lot of whys, and what, and how, and I, I really probably spent six months of just questioning why I was doing it. And it became very clear to me that the reason this is my purpose is because, if I can do it, then there's really no excuse for anybody. Right? So, I didn't know how; I didn't really know anything about the ADA sections, or ADA laws, really kind of dove into it, and then, the most important aspect of how Shine works in the community. So, I started reaching out to Epilepsy Foundation, Davis Phinney Foundation, Special Olympics, you know, Autism Community, all of these various communities and started talking with them about, "What doesn't work in the current environment?" Because the ADA sections really don't take into account anything other than typically mobile situations. And you know, if you; if you need ASL interpreting, you've got to sit in the front, the interpreters are off to the side, so we just kind of broke down every aspect. Of finding out about the show, getting to the show, enjoying the show, and breaking down those barriers. And we didn't know. We didn't know what was gonna work. We, Davis Phinney had a show, we learned every time. I said "Hey; is there anything we're forgetting?" And they're like, "Well you know, people with Parkinson's can't have drinks without lids." That seems pretty obvious, but it definitely just didn't come into play. And then we realized, "Well, you know what, that's probably true for individuals who are in wheelchairs, or utilizing crutches, or whatnot. Right? I mean there's got to be something to help kind of prevent spills, and" so we kind of made it across the board available for all. We have a mantra that we don't do something, or take away something, that negatively impacts another segment of our attendees. And so, food trucks. Food trucks are not accessible for individuals in wheelchairs. But if you stick a table in the front, and you do the orders through the table, not only does it then make it accessible, but it also makes the whole food truck run more efficiently. Because you have one body out of that cramped space that was just standing there taking orders. So, we just kind of go through, and, after our first event, you know, we had thirty-eight hundred people. I have a tendency to think really big, (laugh.) So, so you know, I planned ten thousand people on our very first event. But we had thirty-eight hundred people, it was a hundred- and one-degree day, our event was free, so we really felt good about the number of people, the pandemic was still going on, and we felt good about that, and then we had the moment. The moment that kind of really kept it, the movement going forward. And that was when one of the guests said, and I can quote it by heart, "Thank you for giving me the gift of a music festival, that I was able to navigate on my terms, and my timing, and it's the first time I was ever able to do something like this without the need of a sighted person." So that was our, "You know what, if we made a difference in one person's life, then there's a chance we made a different in some others," and we just kind of take that mentality of, you know, "we don't need it to be easy, we just need it to be possible." And I don't know that it's ever going to be, in exist with existing infrastructures that we're ever gonna be a hundred percent perfect, but we just strive to break down those barriers even further every year. MOe: I really like how you're discovering the ways that one way that you adapt for one kind of person is actually helping other kinds of people. Like you were talking about the Parkinsons, and I'm like, "Well, cups with lids is helpful to parents, it's helpful to us in the blind community, because usually we do have to have a cane or a dog in our other hand, and so we, we end up spilling a lot if it's an open item," or even the table in front of the food truck. I'm just like, "That is so much better than trying to find the window, and the opening for the window for us in this community." Uh, but my question, for you now, is, "What other kind of adaptations have you made to make this so accessible? Shawn: Yeah. So, I'll go with 2023. So, every year we add new features, we learn from the year before. So, in addition to the food trucks, we have large print and braille menus; anything that is written is also in braille. So, the bars all have braille menus, there are kind of lay-out description of the event, and the timeline and the schedule all printed in braille available at the info booths. We had Full Body Sound, which has been at every one of our events, and it's an amazing device that is connected to the sound board, and for our hard of hearing or deaf guests, it takes the music from the sound board, and through electromagnetic energy. The guy who invented it is a rocket scientist. (Laugh.) So, I don't really know how in the world it works, but I can tell you that when you have it on, you're feeling all of the different nuances of the music. It's not just the bass. It's not just, it's, you can tell the difference of the energy between the vocals, and the drums, and the guitar, and the keyboard, and that's just one of my favorite devices. We had Feel the Beat dance floor, which has bone conducting oscillators underneath it, so, again, through vibrational energy this time, you can experience the music coming from the sound board. And then, this year, we're really excited. We debuted a new technology called XRAI glasses. And, although it had been used, or it, it, it was already created and worked, it had never been tested in a live music environment. So, we tested it out, and as our guests had them on, the lyrics from the vocal mic were showing up across the bottom of the glasses. So, now, you've taken it where, you know, not even, just to assume that everybody who is deaf knows ASL, or, isn't true. Or, it always isn't the case, if you look at it from, not every city, not every town, not every venue, maybe has that opportunity. So, this could legitimately break down those barriers, and allow people, someone shows up, and there's no interpreter, there's at least another option for them to be able to participate and be a part of the, of the show. So, that was a really cool technology that we added. And, of course we have sensory zones and sensory backpacks that our amazing friends at the Autism Community Store put together for us, that have fidget spinners, and ear plugs and headphones, and noise canceling headphones, and all of those things in this backpack that they get to have for free, to help them navigate the day. One of our blind guests this year actually had an amazing, we did score 10 out of 10 on our accessibility survey, which, just, is everything that we, you know, hoped for. Do I think it was a ten out of ten? No, because I always think there's room for improvement. But I was, we were all really pleased. The entire Shine Music team worked hard, and to get that score meant a lot to us. But one of the feedback they had was to add beacon tags. So, we could add beacon tags to all of the vendors, and all of the different locations, 'cause it's a very spread-out event, to allow another way for our guests to navigate the space. So, we're really excited about trying to get that integrated for this year's event. Chris: So, all of this is suggesting to me that this is an integrated space. People with disabilities, or people without disabilities are all expected and, and, the hope is, is that they move around the whole venue as independently as they want to. Right? So, can you contrast that with some of the ADA sections that you saw that kind of gave you this idea, for those who maybe don't attend as many concerts as you do, what, what are those sections like? Shawn: Well, I actually, I joined a group, I guess to kind of put things in perspective, there's a band called Goose, that really didn't kind of start getting around; or people didn't notice who they were until about 2019, and now they're huge. You know, they're playing Radio City Music Hall. And they have, since March 30th of last year, they created, fans of Goose created, a Facebook group called So Ready For ADA. And, so it's been less than a year old, the band is a fairly new band, and these are individuals who are Goose fans that need ADA. There are almost three hundred members in that group. So, for those individuals who think, "Why would we go through all this for just a couple of people?" You're not paying attention. (Laugh.) That's what I have to say to those people. It's not that those individuals didn't want to come. It's that they gave up on anyone taking their needs into consideration, or even communicating what those provisions were. So, for me, from an outsider, right, you see, usually, the ADA sections, they allow for one, the person to have one guest with them, they are usually really great seats, but what they have to go through to get those, they're not always because they're up close, the promoters don't usually want those seats to be empty, so you end up finding that those seats are then sold to individuals that don't need ADA. And like I said, I know about when I kind of had that ah hah moment, I had about thirty-eight friends with me? (Laugh.) Like I want all of them to be around me. I kind of said this to someone the other day. My chosen family, right? My friends, the people that I spend the majority of my life with. All of them, I've met through music. And if I was in the ADA section, I wouldn't have met any of them. And some people may love the ADA section. So, it's like "Great, but can we just maybe change it a little bit? Can we maybe, just, think outside of those minimalistic ADA laws. And what can you do to expand on that so that, if there's someone rocking out over in the ADA section, and I happen to be passing by, man, I want to introduce myself. I want to dance with them. I want to bring them into the community. The collective community. And that's really, I think, that until you start looking at it, then, you, you just don't notice. You know there's an ADA section, it's not your section, and that's it. Uh, as I talk to more and more people who require those ADA sections to, to enjoy live music, I hear the other side of it. And that it's, you know, "Oh, if you have two tickets in ADA and you can't go, guess what. You can't transfer those tickets to another individual that has ADA needs. You can't transfer them." So, there's, it's just, there's not, it really comes down to communication. Communication is education. And if everybody would just communicate more, between the fans, and ADA needs, and the promoters, the event staff, uh, I think it could be done, a dramatic change could be made just by communicating. Chris: Sort of reminds me of discussions that we should have finished by now about race where is, is separate but equal really equal. And now we're having some of those same discussions about disability. Shawn: Yeah. I guess I was pretty ashamed at how little I knew. And, you know, you're like "Oh, the ADA laws." Well, I guess minimalistic is the best way to put it. People just do the bare minimum to get by. They look at it from a legal standpoint rather than a human standpoint. I just think it's flawed. I think it's flawed to its core. MOe: We could dive down so many rabbit trails with that, but we are running low on time, so, I know you mentioned the beacons, but what else can we expect for Shine Music Festival this year? Shawn: Yeah. We're always looking, you know, for new technologies. One of the things we are also going to do is, last year, we brought in the music therapy section, and space, and it was so successful. And what was awesome about it was, there were just all these different various instruments. And people could come up and start jamming, there were musicians that played, we had Felix Pastorius, and, Harry Waters, and the band members from SunSquabi, and Neal Evans, and they would just pop out there, and they'd pick up an instrument, and they'd be playing, and the kids are playing, it was awesome. And then they would have talks about how, how music inspires, and encourages and, is healing, and, so what we're going to do is, this year, we're going to add more adaptive instruments. So, there's some amazing, Swallow Hill is a nonprofit organization here in Denver, and they offer music lessons, and they're just a really great organization. They've been around forever. And we're gonna, I'm gonna work with them about getting additional adaptive instruments. So, gonna give people the opportunity to play an instrument for the first time. But we really want to expand on that, and there's some cool technologies out there that, I don't know if you've seen any of them, but they're kind of, you know, let's say, playing a guitar. But it, it's kind of that combination of VR slash AI, you've got a little box in your hand, but you can turn around and play a guitar with it by pushing buttons, or how can that integrate with other adaptive technology? Trashbot was another one they created. I realized at a festival, even recycling is not accessible. (Chuckle.) Like how in the world, I'm sighted, and I'm sitting there staring at the boxes, and I don't know which one my cup goes in. It's just not, it's confusing, and people are throwing stuff in whatever box, and then it ruins it all. CleanRobotics created TrashBot that uses AI, and you can just throw everything in one hole and then it gets sorted within the machine. Well, that makes it accessible also. From neuro diverse to blind to, you know, you name it. And they didn't even realize that, you know, like, "Wait a second. We just answered another question around how we're allowing everyone to participate in taking care of our planet." So, sometimes things that aren't made for that purpose, we're really thinking about accessibility, you can kind of point out how it just kind of breaks down barriers and brings us all closer to a more, you know, equal world. And that's what, that's what our goal is. That's what our real goal is. Is just kind of showcasing and providing a space where we can all see that we're so much more alike than we are different. Chris: So, what are the things that we should have asked that we didn't think of? Shawn: How many people, or what percentage of, let's say three thousand people, do you think we have in attendance that identify with a disability community? It's a music festival. We are not a disability festival; we are a music festival. That is simply universally designed for all. But what percentage would you guess? Chris: At a guess, I'd say twenty, twenty-five percent? Shawn: Yup. Thirty percent. Thirty percent of our attendees identify with the disability community. And for those individuals that go to a lot of music, you'll know that's nothing. It's typically, you know, one percent, and those individuals are just left to fend for themselves. So, we don't just look at one particular, you need a ramp or mobility side of it, we really look at it from all aspects. Whether you're a parent, and you just need a place that, you know, maybe it got a little loud, or you needed a place for your kid to run around and blow off some steam, to an individual that gets anxiety with large crowds. How can we just make the live music scene more open, healthy, inclusive, for all needs? Chris: And family friendly too. I love that. Shawn: Oh, a hundred percent. That's something we've, we've kind of finally dialed in after our third year. We know when our family crowds are there, so we want to change our music structure to really align more with that family friendly, uh, you know, like School of Rock. Right? Or getting some kid, or young adult, musicians. And, so, yeah. We just want to make sure, it's a festival, and we have all different kinds of music, all different kinds of food, all different kinds of vendors, technology, there's really something for everyone. Chris: So, on that note, where can people find out more, and don't forget to mention your fundraising goals. Shawn: Oh yes. Well shinemusic.rocks is our organization page. So that gives you a lot about our mission, of course we're always looking for donors, sponsors, it's a really great place for organizations or businesses to get in front of a very diverse crowd. So, we have a lot of sponsorship opportunities available for this year, um, and then as, um, we did just announce, our date is August twenty-fourth, so the actual event page is shinemusicfestival.com and that is where the lineup will end up being, and the schedule, and then we will have various different pages on there for individuals to get a way for them to consume the information that works best for them. So, all of that is, is on the festival page. Chris: Awesome. And I am planning to be there, ... Shawn: Yay! Chris: And I hope that I am able to produce some audio content for the podcast, so you'll be hearing about this again. Shawn: Great. Chris: And we've actually found out that one of our members was in attendance at one of your festivals recently, so we'll probably bring her on to talk about it from a blind person's perspective, and you know, get another take on this too. Shawn: Oh, I would love that. This isn't us telling anyone else how to enjoy the day. It's taking the feedback from those who have been there, and making those changes, and, and, what works, what doesn't work, what can be tweaked, so, always welcome that feedback. Looking forward to that. Chris: Well Shawn, before I go, thank you for being here, please do mention your fundraising goals, because it takes a lot to put this on. So, not only would it be nice to have donations, but it's really necessary to have donations for something like this. Shawn: Yeah. Yeah. It definitely is. Our events have been free for the community up to this point, and we knew that we had to build. Right, it's not just about getting the disability community to come, but it's everyone. You've got to have everybody intermingling. Right? And, in order to do that, you know, we spent a significant, an astronomical amount of time dialing for dollars. We always start at ground zero every year. We have to start over with that zero-dollar amount in the bank, and because we spend everything we have, all of our team is volunteers, we have no paid staff, and, you know, it gets to a point where there's only so much you can do, and we know what we want to do, and what we want to accomplish, and that's gonna require money. So, our goal right now is, we need a hundred thousand dollars. And we need it before August twenty-fourth. So, if you are, you know, any businesses that really want to align themselves with organizations that are for the greater good, and really trying to make a change, and making the world a more inclusive, accessible space, we'd love to talk with you about, you know, just like we, we uh, tailor our event to everyone's needs; we tailor our marketing and sponsorship offers to the businesses that support us. To make sure that they're getting the most out of their money, the most recognition as possible. Chris: Yeah, it's a big challenge. You know when I compare it to what we've done with Penny Forward. So much of what we were able to do has been virtual, that, you know, when you think about putting on a live event like that, the level of effort just goes way, way up, and I'm in awe of what you've accomplished. So, thank you so much for being here, and sharing your story on the podcast, and welcome to the Penny Forward team also. Shawn: Oh yes! I'm so excited. I, reading all the bios of everyone that you have, you have such an amazing team. So, I'm really excited to work with all of you, and I have a feeling I'm gonna get a lot more out of this than you will out of me, but (Chuckle.) Hopefully, I think it's gonna be a great partnership, for sure. Chris: And Shawn mentioned that she has a background in enterprise web development, and so she's gonna be helping a lot with our website and helping us with some other virtual assistant tasks that we have been needing help with, so that MOe is able to focus on finishing up her accredited financial counselor certification this year. The Penny Forward podcast is produced by Chris Peterson and Liz Bottner, with assistance from MOe Carpenter. Audio editing and postproduction is provided by Brynn Lee at superblink.org. Transcription is provided by Anne Verduin, and the music is composed and performed by Andre Louis. Penny Forward is a nonprofit organization whose mission is to help blind people navigate the complicated landscape of personal finance through education, mentoring, and mutual support. Through our guest, monthly, and yearly memberships, we offer self-paced, online financial education courses, weekly members only group chats, monthly member meetups, of course this podcast, which you can get early access to if you join as a guest, monthly, or yearly member, and access to one-on-one financial counseling, provided by blind financial counselors. And we're working on so much more. To learn more about us, visit our web site at www.pennyforward.com or download the Penny Forward app. Available on IOS and Android, through the Apple App Store and the Google Play store. Now, for all of us in the Penny Forward community, I'm Chris Peterson, ... MOe: I'm MOe Carpenter, ... Chris: And have a great week and thank you for listening.